As the best-selling author of Why We Buy: The Science of Shopping, Paco Underhill has literally helped write the blueprint for how stores and brands should engage shoppers in order to maximize conversions. Through his work as the founder of Envirosell Inc., Underhill has helped developed prototype stores and done research, testing and consulting with more than half of the Fortune 50 list.

Given his unique expertise, Retail TouchPoints (RTP) was pleased to speak with Underhill to get his unique perspectives on how brick-and-mortars stores, shopping experiences and brands will likely change as we emerge from this pandemic.

RTP: You work with many of top brands in the retail industry across verticals. What are their biggest concerns right now as they think about reopening stores and planning for the future?

Paco Underhill: It’s going to vary a lot by channel, but one of the keys is that the connection between the physical store and the cyber store needs to be improved. Everybody, whether you’re a small boutique or a major discount chain, recognizing that the online presence is the way you create community, and it is the way that you get local. The other very important theme here is that the easiest thing to change in retail is the physical design or the cyber design.

The hardest thing to change is the operating culture. One of the things that many senior executives are asking is what are the operational changes we should be considering? One of them is shortening the distance between the executive suite and the front door of the store. We have an old joke that the farthest desk away from the front door was where the person in charge was — and I think that has to change. I would suggest that when stores reopen, senior management needs to commit to spend at least one weekend a month out on the floor, being visible to their staff, and listening and watching what customers do, whether that’s in the physical store or in a call center. Leadership in times of crisis is about leading from the front.

RTP: Since you work so closely on store design and prototypes, how do you see the traditional thinking in retail of guiding traffic by putting popular items in the back of the store evolving?

Underhill: The physical design of the grocery store hasn’t changed since the first Piggly Wiggly opened up in Georgia in the 1930s. Milk was at the back, left hand corner, meat was at the back right hand corner, I entered through produce which was supposed to get my saliva glands working. I wanted to put the bakery where I could smell the fresh items. I think all of that stuff is going to be up for discussion because the primary driver of modern consumption, and I don’t care what you’re consuming, is convenience. Certainly, if stores have to control for at least the next year, the number of people on the floor of the store, the degree to which they can make it fast, easy and convenient, is going to be critical. Therefore, yes, there are some physical changes that are going to be considered.

RTP: What other changes do you anticipate, especially regarding in-store merchandising strategies?

Underhill: All of us recognize lessons that we have learned over the past 10 years, which is that we can shrink the footprint of the store often and carry the same number of SKUs or a more focused selection of SKUs for the specific market that we’re serving. And I don’t think there’s any irony that most of the major big box stores over the past five to 10 years have been looking at ways of shrinking their format and what do they do with the excess space.

The challenge, is also recognizing that, particularly for the female consumer, the shopping trip starts and ends in the parking lot. Retailers should be asking: Is there a better way of linking the parking lot, the parking spaces, the parking management? Where do I do the drive thru? Do I let her come in and pick out the orange juice she wants? And yet all of the rest of stuff is loaded in the back of her car.

Over the past year as I’ve been working on a book called, The Future of Eating and Drinking, I’ve found that almost every store designer is thinking about that process: How do I make the connection between the trucking bay and the front of the store better?

RTP: You talked about the parking lot. One of the major changes we’ve seen is the increase in curbside pickup. Do you see that trend lingering long term even as more stores open up?

Underhill: Yes, and it is very important to recognize that something like 30% of Americans cannot accept an online purchase at their place of business, or at their jobs at home during the working day. If you’re a teacher, a doctor or a construction supervisor, it’s just not practical. Also,  a drone service works great in gated communities, but it doesn’t work so great in Brooklyn. So, yes, I think that the idea of order online and pickup whether it’s at the store or at the parking lot, there are some major innovations here. Certainly, if I’m a strip mall operator, or I’m a shopping mall operator, one of the underutilized assets that you have is the crumbling parking lot that surrounds you.

RTP: The “store of the future” is an over-used term, but what will stores look like after this pandemic? What long-term changes do you expect on shopping and how brands are engaging consumers?

Underhill: Let’s look at it from a number of different points of view. If I’m a shopping mall operator, one of the things that I’m going to be doing is recognizing the importance of pop ups and the importance of seasonal businesses that I’m not looking necessarily to have somebody sign a 20-year lease, or even a one-year lease, but maybe a four-month lease and be able to think about change.

Second is the literal, physical store: everything from the shelf to the product packaging has to change. You know, once we reach age 40, about 80% have decided on the kind of dog food we want to buy. Do we really need to get it in a package that’s designed primarily to scream at us from the shelf? The answer is no. Is there a way for some of the consumer product manufacturers to go to a better subscription service where if I’m Procter & Gamble, I can ask you to fill out this questionnaire about your laundry, you can send us a water sample and let us custom blend a laundry soap for you. I think those are all things that are that are going to be up in the air.

RTP: How much more of a factor will safety be in the shopping journey?

Underhill: Two things here are going to be absolutely critical. The first is recognizing that security, particularly for the female consumer, is something that often drives her purchase decision to one place or another. If we talk to almost any woman, she will describe something creepy that happened to her and often it’s in a parking lot. And paying attention to that sense of security is going to be important.

The other one, which is again, a critical one for the female consumer is hygiene. And one of the poignant questions that we’re often asking, as we interface with the retail design community, is at what point in the design process are you considering keeping the environment clean? Does it happen afterwards, or do you start with that premise? Because if it’s easier to keep clean, it’s much more likely to keep clean. This is something that is ironic, whether we’re talking about the design of retail stores, or homes, or even the layout of a hotel room, is talking to the cleaning staff often is very enlightening. I remember talking to the female managers of a Mexican supermarket chain and they made a very interesting decision, which is to move some of the store cleaning process from after the store was closed to the hours that the store was open. So that people saw somebody actively washing the floors or wiping down the freezer, doorways and their scores for hygiene went up, even though they were spending the exact same amount of money extra.